bladespark | Sunday sermons

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Sunday sermons

I used to post these all the time. I thought I might try and get back into the habit, though I doubt I'll manage to post one every single Sunday. Just whenever something from church particularly inspires me to thought.

I'm posting this unlocked, and I ask that whether you agree or disagree with my views, that you please keep things civil in the comments. I'm normally very private about this sort of thing, and I'm giving you guys reading this a lot of trust by posting it for you all to see. Please don't abuse that trust. As Thumper's mother said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

There was a lesson at church a few weeks ago, about revelation, and the teacher said "God speaks to all men." Now "men" here doesn't mean "males" it means men in the sense of mankind, of all humanity. And I was thinking about this idea, that God speaks to everyone. I don't think it's a commonly held belief. I think most religions teach, or at least assume, that God speaks only to some certain group of the chosen. But I really do think that God speaks to all of us.

Some of you are probably going "But God has never said anything to me." Well, in the Gospel According To SPark (which is most of the stuff I post, this is always my opinion, not any kind of official doctrine) there are two reasons for that. One was addressed by the same teacher with the quote "God never uses a floodlight when a flashlight will do." Ie. He's not going to descend from on high with a chorus of angels to tell you something that He can say with a little spark of quiet inspiration in your heart. I think many of those moments of small yet profound wonder that we experience are from God.

The second reason we don't always hear God speaking to us is because we don't want to. Do you think, if God spoke to you, that He'd say "You're right about everything you believe, and you're doing the right thing in everything that you do, you're perfect, just carry on as is"? Yeah, no. God always calls us to be better than we are. Even if you're Mother Theresa or some other saintly, devoted, godly sort, there's always something you could improve. But God doesn't force that on us. If we don't want Him to call us to be better and kinder and less lazy and more inspired, then He won't. We have our free will, and how much God we want in our lives is entirely up to us. Though even those who reject God completely aren't rejected by Him, I think. I think He still sends them those moments of wonder, because in the end what God wants is for us to be happy, fulfilled, and accomplished people, who live up to our potential, and who reach out to those around us and help them as well. So within the limits that we ourselves allow, God does what He can to help each of us be that sort of person.

And on the subject of reaching out, I'm opening this post up for question asking. I tried formspring once, but I never did get any questions. :) Not "popu-fur" enough, I think. But anyhow, you can ask questions about the little sermon there, or about my religion, or about me personally, my business, my art, whatever. Any question you like. All questions are guaranteed an answer, though no answers are guaranteed to be the answer you hoped to get. :)

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I wish there was a 'like' button on facebook, beacuse I think this post needs some Likes. :)

er, on LJ, LIKE facebook. Sorry. Cannot apparently type sensible comments and eat tacos at the same time.

I think if I ate a taco and tried to type at the same time, I'd make a disastrous mess of the keyboard. XD

I'm talented like that. They're also very small tacos (and fairly dry compared to normal American tacos- these steamed brisket tacos from the gas station on the way home from work), which makes it easier.

There was a point last year where, for some reason I couldn't quite say, I felt like I *had* to go out to the skating rink... But when we got there, I didn't really feel like skating, but felt compelled to stay.

A girl fell and broke her leg, I was the first person to stop beside her and the only one to keep her calm until the EMTs arrived.

So... Yes, I agree. Instead of being forceful, some things come as a nudge. I've felt the same kind of odd compulsion to talk to random people, only to find out they're having a very rough time and that something I said or was able to do helped to make it better. I think, no matter what a person's outlook is on religion, spirituality, or life, if everyone were open to those little nudges in the right direction the world would be a much better place.

*nods* I've had those kinds of nudges too.

Weird thing is, when I've gotten that feeling, I end up spending a little time almost talking to myself... "Okay, why am I here? There's no reason to stay. But, I should stay. I don't know why, but I have to stay here."

I've always followed it though, and it always proves to have a reason.

I have no idea what happened to that girl after the fact, but I have a feeling me being there made a difference in a good way.

Considering how glad I was to have somebody who knew what they were doing on hand until the ambulance got there, when I got run over by a mad cyclist (dunno if you know that story, I ljed it, but it was years ago) if nothing else you probably reassured her and kept her from having panic on top of her shock.

I've dealt with both humans and animals in pain... I always slip into the same tone of voice, very calm and soft, but still sort of commanding their focus and attention. It's kinda hard to explain, but it keeps them more calm as well. Even animals seem to realize, I'm there to help, and that it will be alright. That, and I know from experience, you *can* focus through some pretty bad pain if you have something to keep yourself focused on.

And no, hadn't heard the story, although now I'm curious.

It was back when I was going to college in Utah, before I moved to Oregon. I was crossing a cross-walk on campus, (the kind with a stop-light for the cars even!) and all the cars had stopped like they should, but a guy on a bicycle who was going down hill apparently decided that stop lights weren't for bikes, because he just zoomed right through, and hit me straight on.

I did an actual somersault from the impact and landed on my head and shoulder, after which things get a little bit blurry, since, you know, I'd just landed on my head! But half a dozen of the other students who'd been crossing too came over, and one of them was a nursing student, so she knew what to do, while somebody else called an ambulance to come get me. (Shortest ambulance ride ever, the hospital is across the street from the university.)

I didn't end up with a concussion, but I did have a HUGE goose egg, and had a really hard time thinking clearly for the next couple of weeks, not to mention being in a ton of pain. They gave me some opiate-based pain killers, and after the first one that I took right when the doctor gave it to me I didn't take any more, I don't like the "I'm not running my own brain" feeling they gave me. I walked home from the hospital (I lived about four blocks from it, so it wasn't far) which turned out to be kind of stupid, I felt just about dead when I got home, but after that I healed up pretty well.

The guy on the bike had stopped, and asked if I was okay, but after just a minute or so he said he wanted to go clean up his skinned knee, and he vanished and didn't come back. The campus cops caught him loading his bike into a car, so he got charged with a hit and run. They didn't make me go to court, but I got a notice about it, that I could go and testify if I wanted to, but I didn't care. I gather he was in pretty bad trouble as it was.

His insurance company paid me $700, which they said was the standard for how much I'd been injured. The insurance guy seemed really concerned that I might try and sue them for more, but I felt strange enough just taking the money they gave me. It is so weird to me that injuries are quantified in dollars like that. It's a strange society we live in. But anyway, that's how I bought my first computer, I'd always just used the family computer before that.

So now you know. :D

Amazing how there is almost always someone at the site of such things when they're needed... After the wreck my best friend from school died in, I was strapped to a bed in a St. Louis trauma ward when they finally told me he'd been pronounced DOA... And of all the people who could have turned up, one of the janitors came in to clean and found me in tears. And then she actually sat and talked with me for a few minutes, in between me bawling my eyes out.

And... it helped. Maybe she didn't have the training to help me medically, but at that point the pain I was in physically wasn't the worst of what I'd been through.

There's a song I used to listen to as a kid, over and over again... The chorus is what really hits home:
"I believe there are angels among us,
Sent down to us from somewhere up above.
They come to you and me in our darkest hour
To show us how to live
Teach us how to give
To guide us with the light of love."

Perhaps that's along the same lines as the floodlight/flashlight idea... Why send down something with wings in pretty robes when there's another human right there, ready and willing to help when it's needed? Maybe most wouldn't think that to be heavenly intervention, but I kinda think it might be.

*chuckles* There's a song from my childhood that goes:

I once saw a statue of Jesus without any arms.
I said to myself, what a crime, how can this be?
The answer was carved in the marble,
At his feet for all to see.
It said, "He has no hands but yours."

Same kind of idea, I think. (The song in question was part of this Mormon 80s Hair Pop album that's frankly kind of hilarious, but still has some good stuff.)

Actually, that does sound like an interesting song. Kinda demented in a way, but then what 80s music isn't? But, it definitely has a point.

There was a lesson at church a few weeks ago, about revelation, and the teacher said "God speaks to all men." Now "men" here doesn't mean "males" it means men in the sense of mankind, of all humanity. And I was thinking about this idea, that God speaks to everyone. I don't think it's a commonly held belief. I think most religions teach, or at least assume, that God speaks only to some certain group of the chosen. But I really do think that God speaks to all of us.

Actually, I find, at least among evangelizing religions (including LDS and most "street preachers" I know of), that this belief is relatively common! (the plural of anecdote is not data, I know, hush) On the other hand, the Catholic Church -- actually I suspect this was part of the causes of the Reformation -- assumed a difference between the clergy and the laity (I love using that word). Which is where the whole latin mass thing comes from too!

Your historical record is accurate. Catholicism does differentiate between the clergy and the laity, following more closely the idea that there is a High Priest who does the ritual functions and an laity on whose behalf those functions are done.

As for Protestant religion, though, while there's the widespread belief that God speaks to all on paper, in practice, especially in some of the more rigid or fundamentalist strains, the clergyman is given an absolute monopoly on the interpretation of the writing, what counts as God talking, and what God is actually saying when he speaks. The laity are often told that God is telling them to go and get more converts, not to interpret the writings for themselves.

This is not likely to be the case in SParkverse, but elsewhere it is a possibility.

Yeah, the authoritarian nature of religion-in-practice often gets me grumpy.

This does bring me to another point/question/etc though.

I got the impression as an outsider that in LDS, there is less clergy/laity divide in general: that everyone ends up doing the various "ministerial" duties like meeting with the infirm, once in a while, that everyone ends up doing the "teaching" stuff, etc, etc. There must still be some divide, clearly, or there wouldn't be a hierarchy of temples and chapels and so forth, but I don't really know. I seek enlightenment!

We have what's called a "lay clergy" which means there's no special distinction between an ordinary member and a priest/whatever. Every male member is ordained to the priesthood, and every female member is qualified for the equivalent female leadership positions. (I got "set apart" which is like being ordained if technically slightly different, for my position.) On a local level everything is divided up and shared out, and the Bishop who leads the local congregation is just an ordinary church member who's been picked to be bishop for a few years. He might have been the guy who prints up meeting programs before, and might be the guy who babysits toddlers in the nursery afterward. (And every active member does something or other, I'm currently the pianist for the Relief Society meetings.) The next level up, Stake leaders are picked much the same way, in much the same sort of temporary arrangement.

The church's world-wide leadership is picked from the general membership in a similar way, though nearly always they've previously had some leading experience on the local level before getting selected, but in their case it's not temporary, if they accept the position they're expected to keep it for life, and at that level they're also expected to quit any jobs they may have, and put any assets they have into a pool, from which everybody in said pool gets their living money. (I don't know the exact details of that, but I think that it's fairly self-supporting, as a certain number of those called were well-off enough to provide for everybody, but the church's other funds probably supplement it at times.) That's a very small group compared to the membership of the church though, no more than a few hundred people. Mostly the church runs at a purely local level, on a purely volunteer basis.

Temples are an entirely different matter, which I'm somewhat less familiar with, as I've never personally held a temple related position, but I believe they're also entirely volunteer run, and the temple president is usually somebody who's retired and thus has the time to devote to running a temple even though he's not getting paid to do it. As I say, though, I'm not 100% certain, I've never been, and haven't personally known any temple presidents. They're not really in my social circle, being old people. :)

Ah, so it's even more glommed together than I thought! That's pretty cool.

They put out lots and lots of manuals for the local leadership, to try and keep it coherent. :) But it is very glommed together compared to say, Catholicism. Then again half the evangelical groups appear to work on a "if you can get people to listen to you you're a preacher" basis so we're at least less haphazard than that!

I see religion within it`s historical context so I do tend to see God speaks to all men as refering mainly to the male sex. Historically women were kept out of the church and even now many churchs limit the amount of authority of women in the church... it`s slowly changing, but I disagree about your interpretation about what he meant by that. I think he did really mean men, which is what bothers me with organized religion.

I do agree with your thoughts on how God or whatever higher power you believe in communicates though... small sparks of intition, vs "Hi I'm God". I find myself inherently skeptical of those who claim they saw Jesus and talked to him. Not to say I don't think he's not real. I believe he was real... hundreds of years ago. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, but small nudges make much more sense.

Anyways, hope you understand what I'm saying, both agreeing and disagreeing :)

Since the "he" in question is my teacher and he explicitly said he meant mankind as part of the lesson, I kind of think I know what he meant...

(And honestly your assumption that my teacher must be sexist rather bothers me. Why would you assume that? "Religion has been sexist in the past therefore all religious people must still be sexist"? That's... nonsensical. Especially when the person who knows this teacher, ie. myself, went out of their way to say otherwise?)

Edited 2011-02-07 05:33 (UTC)

Sorry I miss read. I thought that was how you were interpreting what he said, not what he actually said- though being truly inclusive "god speaks to all people" would of been better. Maybe you could discuss with him inclusive language? It seems silly but it does make a difference. As for my guess of sexism... I have a lot of personal issues with the church. Hell, one minister thought I wasn't even able to change a lightbulb because I was a delicate woman. I am involved with missionary work at times and meet many religious leaders... The majority of whom believe "the woman is the lamb and it is the role of the man to shelter and guide her", and i need a man to make my life whole (which good luck-im gay) Also, in many churches I STILL could not be a preacher/minister/pastor because women aren't allowed positions of authority. I'm sorry I was wrong in this case, but it holds true in many others.

Heh. I dunno, if you're seeing sexism where it isn't here, I gotta wonder how much of the sexism you're seeing elsewhere actually exists. You seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder about it. I don't doubt that some churches are just like you say, but mine sure isn't. Women's authority roles in my church have different titles than men's, but there's just as many female leaders as male. Every congregation has a male bishop and a female Relief Society president, and they run things between them. And I've never once felt like anybody in my church thought less of me because of my gender. Somewhat the opposite even, the prophet (leader of the whole church world wide) once said he felt that women were if anything far better than men, and the men of the church could do worse than to try and emulate their wives. The church uses some archaic language, like the "man" for "mankind" thing, but honestly... when you're used to that meaning, reading the Bible suddenly includes women much more thoroughly, and maybe that's a good thing.

And when a guy says "Let's discuss this idea: 'God speaks to all men.' *writes on blackboard* Now what do you think this means? Well first let's talk about the 'men' part. Am I leaving you ladies out? Of course not! I'm using 'men' here in the sense that means all mankind, so it includes everyone in this room. And what else does 'all men' mean..."

That's more or less what he said, paraphrasing because it's been a few weeks. I really don't think I need to say anything about inclusive language there. It would be absurd when he made it crystal clear that he's being inclusive.

Well if you don't see being told you are incable of reaching a higher level in the church because you're female or told you should be in the kitchen helping with the cooking not out lifting boxes even though you can lift more then most of the men as sexist... then I don't think anything I say will sway you. "relief society president" I think is something unique to your church. I've never heard of that before. o-o I'd say if you doubt my view of overall sexism within most churches, look at other churches and forms of Christianity. I think you'll be pretty surprised at how sexist many are... not to mention abusive at times. I have a chip from having experienced being told "no you can't- you're a girl" and even as far as having a bible thrown at me for pointing out some lines in the bible had more then one way of being read.

Using "man" and "mankind" to speak to all people because the bible does it is honestly a bit silly in my view. The bible wasn't writen in English. It was translated into it, so using the way the bible phrases things only makes sense if you are reading in Hebrew (which if you do you get a few things that are hugely different). I'm curious to how you feel women in the bible is a good thing though? The majority of women throughout the bible (Mary being an exception) are seen in a pretty negitive light. Eve leading mankind into damnnation, the whore of babylon... not to mention leviticus discussing how impure women are and how sacrafices must be performed to clense them to enter the temple... when the bible talks about men it usually it's refering to those of the male sex. Often the armies, or other groups of males.

And as noted before- I wasn't clear from your post that you were paraphrasing him vs interpreting what he said. I understand that now. :)

*sigh* You keep completely missing the point of what I'm saying. For one thing, I don't doubt you have good reasons to have a chip on your shoulder, but good reasons or not, it's skewing your judgment. You were amazingly quick to jump on something that was already explicitly explained as not sexist and insist it was sexist too. Your experiences are valid, I'm not arguing that, but I simply have never seen the world-wide all-of-Christianity sexism you insist exists, and I think your experiences are making you see what may not be anywhere near as common as you think it is.

Secondly, I didn't say the "man" thing was from the Bible. I said it was archaic. It's from the dictionary. "a member of the species Homo sapiens or all the members of this species collectively, without regard to sex: prehistoric man." It's used by all kinds of people including scientists! It's archaic, but it's not used in that sense because of the Bible. However if you use it in that sense, then the Bible is much less the negative, sexist document you see it as. I can read "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom" and know it's talking about me, where if I take your view, I guess women aren't allowed to be happy in wisdom, or something.

And honestly, have you never read Ruth? Or Esther? Two entire books of the Bible that are centered on women as the heroes and stars of the story! Mary is not the only good woman in the Bible. For every Whore of Babylon there's a Rachel, who Jacob loved so much he worked for her father 14 years so he could marry her, or a Sarah who God blessed to be the mother of nations, or a Rebekah who was shown to be kind-hearted and generous to all. The Bible is full of good stories about women! Have you read the Bible? Were you so busy being angry about how sexist it was that you missed these stories? You seem aware of the restrictive laws of Leviticus that Christ said were done away with anyhow, but you seem to be missing entire books! And the New Testament has more of the same, in addition to Mary, did you know about Martha, the sister of Lazarus, who was a disciple of Christ? Or Mary Magdalene, who was the first person to see Christ resurrected? I could list more, this is not by any means a complete recitation of the positive depictions of women in the Bible!

There's probably not much point in my going on further, because I think your world view and mine are too wildly different to come to an agreement about this, but I really think you might want to reconsider some of your prejudices. Certainly not all Christians are sexist, and I maintain that most are not, and you've had the misfortune of knowing some people who are not at all typical of Christianity as a whole.

P.S. I just wanted to say that I'm not trying to attack you. I hope it doesn't come across that way. You seem like a perfectly nice person. :) I just kind of profoundly disagree with you about this issue, and I'm trying to find words that explain myself, since we seem to not be understanding one another very well. But one can disagree without being disagreeable, and I hope I've managed to express my opinion without offending you.

I was smote once...

I'm still an atheist, but when I was a somewhat less introverted atheist I once said that if God wanted me to believe in him, he'd do something useful like give me a ham sandwich when I'm hungry. I quickly amended that to turkey, because I don't much like ham.

For the next two weeks, whenever I went to a deli to order a sandwich, I got ham instead of turkey no matter how clearly I said the word. From then on, I decided that I'd mind my own Ps and Qs and let God get on with keeping the universe from imploding. So far that seems to have worked out.

To paraphrase Lily Tomlin, "Why is it when we talk to God it's praying but when God talks to us, it means we're crazy?"

I'm more of a deist, so though I don't think God talks specifically to us, I do think He leaves us notes tacked to the fridge. EXAMPLE: I have a friend who *constantly* complains that she has NO inspiration to create art. I don't how she can be like that as I see it everywhere (as in they're God's little notes). This morning's sunrise was amazing! I would love to be able to sit and paint it! (My paint would freeze, though - the curse of the watercolorist.) I don't think she picks up on the notes. :(

Yeah, I think artistic inspiration definitely has something of the divine about it.

Without getting into matters that are oathbound or otherwise restricted from being told to the uninitiated, could you describe what happens in a typical "Sunday service"/Shabbat/worship gathering, if there is such a thing?

You could go to one yourself and fine out. The sunday services are open to everybody. :) I can guarantee that there's a congregation that meets somewhere near you. Well. Unless you live in China or certain parts of the Middle East.

But I'll go ahead and give a description. It depends a bit what day you turn up, once a month there's Fast Sunday that's slightly different, but the standard service begins with a hymn and a prayer, after which they take care of annoucements and "ward business" that includes the confirmation of newly baptized members, blessing newborn babies, and the Bishop awarding congratulations to children who have graduated from the children's program, boy scouts who've earned certain scouting awards, and young women who've earned certain equivalent Young Women's awards.

Most weeks though there's not much ward business, and they sing another hymn and then proceed to the blessing and passing of the sacrament, where bread and water are passed among the congregation, which I gather pretty much all Christian groups do in some form. :)

Then the speakers address the congregation. There's no "preacher" as such, the speakers are usually just drawn from the congregation. (They're told a week or so before that they'll be speaking, and usually the Bishop asks them to speak on some specific topic.) Generally there will be 2-3 speakers, sometimes including a youth speaker, and all that together takes up an hour and fifteen minutes, at the end of which there's another hymn, another prayer, and the service is over.

It's followed by two class blocks, a Sunday School class, of which there are various classes held for various ages, and a meeting where the women of the Relief Society and the men of the Priesthood (which means all the women and all the men) meet in their groups, while the youth meet in Young Women's and Young Men's, and the children meet in Primary. This usually involves another hymn, another prayer, that particular organization's specific business, and a short lesson of some kind.

Now what goes on in the Temple is somewhat restricted, but that's not a weekly thing, most members attend no more than once a month or so, some far less frequently than that. I generally only go a couple of times a year.

All I've gotta say is, I don't really know you all that well, I lurk a lot... but I absolutely agree with most of your views on religion, specifically Christianity, and I'm just so relieved that there are other Christians out there who are sensible, moderate, spiritual and not batshit insane!It's very refreshing. Every time you post about religion it's just so nice to see that someone on the internet isn't spewing hate everywhere. You respect others but aren't afraid to air your own views, and it's so nice.

I don't really understand LDS (specifically I'm not really sure /why/ the temple rituals and stuff, though I know you're not supposed to talk to them) but each to their own. I'm of the school of Cake or Death (Episcopalian)and it works for me :3

We can't say exactly what happens, but the question of why is one I don't have any problem discussing, actually. :)

The temple rituals have several different parts. One is actually quite open, it's called proxy baptism. You get baptized on behalf of somebody who died without baptism. We believe the scriptures that say things like "Except a man be born of water ... he cannot enter the kingdom of God" are literally true, you have to be baptized, but we also believe that God is merciful and that people who never got a chance in life will get a chance in the afterlife. (Some people get upset about that, saying that we're presuming to "convert" everybody who's died to our faith, but we also hold that people can choose to accept or reject the baptism, you still have free will in the afterlife too.)

Anyhow! We also perform weddings in the temple. They're in many ways a lot like any wedding, but they don't use the "till death do us part" phrase, because we believe that a temple wedding is eternal, you'll be together after death too. I happen to have a regular civil marriage right now, it's for this life only. I hope to "upgrade" it someday if my husband converts to Mormonism, but if he doesn't that's okay too. A whole lifetime together is not a bad thing.

Then there's the endowment. That's the bit that can't be discussed, at least not in any detail. Honestly even if I could tell you what's done, it would still be hard to explain. It's all about symbols, (very much the way taking sacramental bread and wine are about symbols) so it's all quite deep and complex and many-layered. But essentially it's a ceremony where you solemnly make promises to God. They're not particularly weird promises, even, they center around fidelity, chastity, and holding things sacred. But part of what you promise is to hold what you did and said sacred as well, and not share it around.

If you really want to know, there are people who have broken those promises, and you can find the details on the internet, but I've never gone looking. I'd find seeing somebody break their solemn word to God like that pretty depressing, and I don't want to see it.

Anyhow, the "why" behind it all is (putting it simply) that our church really believes in ceremonies and promises. Baptism is a ceremony and a promise, (you promise to accept Christ as your savior and take His name by becoming Christian) taking the sacrament at church is a ceremony and a promise, (you promise to remember Christ's sacrifice of his body and blood for you) and attending the temple is a ceremony and a promise. They're all steps on the road to our eventual goal of returning to God. There are lots of other steps, including ones we share with nearly all religions, steps like "be decent to your fellow human beings," but the ceremonial steps are important to us.

Hopefully all that makes sense. :)

Oh, I see! That clears up a lot for me. I used to think that the proxy baptism was more of a forceful thing than simply offering the dead the opportunity for baptism. I don't really agree with that particular approach to conversion, but it does make a powerful symbol.

I guess it's a cultural difference between churches-- Anglicans don't really have the same level of ritualization, For the vast majority of church members there's only baptism and confirmation, though some people choose to study theology and get ordained. Ceremony isn't as important. I guess that's why LDS seems strange from my point of view, but I definitely have a better understanding of the reasoning now.

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Sunday sermons

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