Sex roles

[bladespark]

If women really do think the way they do because their brain chemistry causes them to think that way, I would not have just gotten this result.

Your Score: Masculine

You scored 66 masculinity and 46 femininity!

You scored high on masculinity and low on femininity. You have a traditionally masculine personality.

Link: The Bem Sex Role Inventory Test written by weirdscience on OkCupid Free Online Dating, home of the The Dating Persona Test

Yes, I know that online tests prove very little. But on EVERY "men are like X, women are like Y" test I have EVER seen, of ANY type, I am like X. Always. Universally. But last time I checked I menstrate and have breasts. I am not overly hairy. I do not have above-average testosterone. I have no masculine physiological characteristics.

There are ways in which male and female brains differ. I am aware of this. But the idea that these differences are the reason behind the gender roles that we take is ludicrous. The differences in how your brain works do not cause men to be doctors and women to be nurses. They do not cause men to leave the toilet seat up. They do not cause women to drive badly. They do not mean that women communicate via complicated codes while men say what they mean, and women get emotional at the drop of a hat and men never cry. Those things have nothing to do with how your brain is wired, and everything to do with how you were raised. You are bombarded constantly with the idea of how men should be, and how women should be. But these ideas are based in a myth, not a reality.

In reality, men can cry. Women can be unmoved by emotion. Men can be cryptic if they want, and women can be direct. Men can buy too many shoes. (And they don't have to be gay to do so!) Woman can love fast cars. (And don't need to be butch either.) They can. There is no biological imperative to behave according to the stereotype. If you find yourself unable to break free of it, blame society, not genetics.

Happily, despite my mother occasionally wishing I dressed in a more feminine fashion, my parents did not insist that I conform to traditional gender roles. If they had, I'd be even more screwed up than I am now. They bought me Barbies, but they never expressed any disappointment in me when I preferred to dig in mud and fall out of trees. Bless them for it.

P.S. Harli, this is not just directed at you. You got me thinking about it again, but it's something I have been meaning to post for quite a while, actually.

Comments

I'm a dude in a chick's body...

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

:D I never realy liked being feminine all the time, dressing up is fun, especially when a boyfriend is involved, but all that stuff is crap. I know many women who are very cold and unemotional, more so than some guys I know. I played with dinosaurs, lion king toys and TMNT toys. Until about ten, i preferred playing with biys (after ten all male children i knew turend into assholes or moved away) and our parents started thinking it was weird to have same sex friends... :P

gender roles are lame. Biologically, women build up toxins in their eyes, which explains more crtying/blinking/wet eyes. Guys are indeed more heavily muscled than most women, and yes, in relationships women can TEND to be less interested in sex after the two have been dating a long time. But that doesn't mean discrimation or stereotypes about anyone, whether male, femle, gay, straight, transgender, androgynous asexual, or whatever else are ever right or good things to rely on... when you assume, things bite you in the ass hard..

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

im almost regretting making that entry. i dont claim that all men are the same, nor do i claim all women are the same. you dont live for 26 years without seeing a man cry, drive badly and do something that society deems *feminine*. you also dont live 26 without seeing a woman in love with a sports car or involved in a belching contest or something that society deems equally *manly*.

in fact, what i was writing about was the common misunderstandings between men and women, and by the amount of replies from both the men and women who read my LJ, it seems that i pretty much had it dead on. alot of women say that their men dont seem to be aware of their tone or body language when they say things. just as perhaps some women read a little too much into a guys body language or tone when the men mean simply what they say.

my post had nothing to do with what society feels should be normal for all men and what should be normal for all women. not all sappy moving make me cry. i like my little ponies and i think theyre pretty but i also photograph road kill because to some degree, i find it pretty. personalities and interests aside, alot of men (not all) and alot of women (again, not all) do clash because they think and act differently. many men dont get subtle clues, in fact, Psyko has told me this time and again. he tells me that if i want something, to just ask otherwise he doesnt know. this is true. some women dont like just asking so they drop what they feel are rather obvious hints and then get upset because their man doesnt pick up the hints. some men just dont get hints.

women can be doctors, men can be nurses. i never said that the way our brains are wired, prevents this from happening, so i have no idea where you got that from.

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

Your Score: Masculine

You scored 63 masculinity and 33 femininity!

You scored high on masculinity and low on femininity. You have a traditionally masculine personality.

Link: The Bem Sex Role Inventory Test written by weirdscience on OkCupid Free Online Dating, home of the The Dating Persona Test

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Harli - did I not say that this was NOT about your post? Your post just reminded me of it.

I disagree with you about it, at least some, but this isn't directed at you, so don't get all offended. I know perfectly well that YOU never said our brains were wired that way. Somebody else did.

As for "hints," that's a load of crap. You do NOT drop hints. If somebody wants to be understood? They should say what they mean. If somebody drops hints, and they're not picked up on, that's their fault, not the guy's fault.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

And women don't pick up on hits either. It's called "not having telepathy" not "being male."

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

btw, Psyko wanted me to tell you something:

"you are reading way to deep into it, which in and of itself is the problem."

XD

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Harli. Please READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN.

You are taking this post to be about you. IT IS NOT.

It is not about Psycho either. It is about a LIFE TIME of me having to deal with how society and my peers told me I should be. It is about not understanding OTHER FEMALES because they'd been socialized to be manipulative and indirect. It is about a LOT of things that have nothing whatsoever to do with you and Psycho.

You're the one reading too much into it.

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

wtf? i just read it to Psyko to get his thoughts on it and he asked me to pass on the message.

the "XD" was a lighthearted laugh thing....

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

quite a few women do indeed pick up hints. you dont need to be a mind reader to gather hints.

but i do agree, if people wants something then they should just say what they mean, not tip toe around dropping hints.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

And what, then, if this is all a joke, am I reading too deep into? I said that men and women are not that different. How is that reading anything too deeply? And if I'm "reading too deeply" about you a Psycho, then you need to LEARN TO READ because that's not what this is about and I SAID SO. I am trying to express a lifelong frustration that is serious to me. I am pissed off about it, and If you want to make fun of that, then go do it somewhere else.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Okay, sorry. I let my temper get away with me there.

But this isn't a laughing matter to me. It's important. Females are socialized by society to behave in very unhealthy ways, and told that this is just how women are supposed to be. I hate that, and I hate that people constantly perpetuate it in all kinds of ways.

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

i dunno. HE said it! he says that women over analyze things.

he just said that i over analyze things too.


im not making fun of a damn thing! the "XD" was a laugh at PSYKO! jesus...have you EVER known me to poke fun at something serious to you?

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

have you ever EVER known me to laugh at anything that was serious to you?
no, i laughed at Psyko. you know that i would NEVER ever laugh at something that a friend of mine felt so deeply about. :/

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Sorry about that. You are spiffy-awesome, I should know better.

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

*hugs* im sorry too. i dont want to loase a friend as great as you to something as stupid as a misunderstanding. i respect you a hell of a lot.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

I respect you a lot to. *grin* I just don't always understand how you think!

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

:P i dont always understand how you think either!

*incoming joke...be prepared!*
stop over analyzing meeeeeee!

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

*Hands you a shrink, they can over analyze you instead.*

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

XD oh noes! they just want to put me on their piiiills.
then ill just be like Foamy the squirrels crazy little pill popping cousin!

[realis-kat.livejournal.com]

So here is my questions on this, being raised be only females, who at against the female norm, did that make me more effeminate than masculine? how much did my up bringing infuance my well definite female tendancys? or is that from being part of the gay sub-culture that seems to try and push gender roles on its same sex cupples?

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

I dunno. How a person fits into gender roles is a pretty complex subject. It's hard to point at any one thing and say "it's because of this."

I mean... I don't think "like a man" because I'm gay. I'm pretty straight, really. And it's not like I was raised by boys, my dad was pretty absentee when I was growing up, so I was raised by my mom. I had two brothers, but they were younger, not older, so I influenced them more than they influenced me.

So why am I the way I am? Dunno.

[beetlecat.livejournal.com]

I have to disagree. Women and men have *very* different brains and thought processes. (women are better at english, men are better at math - that kind of thing) Your study sample of one really isn't big enough to draw any conclusions from.

That does not mean there is *never* overlap though and the modern lack of traditional roles also affects this as men and woman are being allowed to explore other roles. It is now being scientifically understood that gender is a sreies of sliding scales with classic man on one side and classic female on the other with the entire population falling somewhere between.

BTW, my score on that test was 'androgynous' (50% masculine and 53% feminine) and I'm not really sure how I should take that :P

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Uhm - different thought processes are, at least in part, CULTURALLY ingrained. From a very young age our society rewards girls and boys for different behaviors. Of course they then turn out to think differently! Women are better at English because women are encouraged to be so, and discouraged, however subtly or blatantly, from being good at math. It has nothing to do with how we are wired, and everything to do with how we are taught. Even when teachers say that they teach boys and girls the same things, it's been shown that they actually treat them VERY differently, they're just not consciously aware of doing so, it's such an ingrained part of our society by now.

Our gender roles are not based on biology nearly as much as they are based on tradition, and they have very little to do with genetic differences.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Now if you can show me a study that's completely cross-cultural, or one that shows a difference in newborns, I might change my mind a little, but so far every study I've seen on men thinking one way and women another was performed entirely within the bounds of American adults and teens.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Hrm. I keep thinking of things I need to add.

I DO think that men's and women's brains are different. HOWEVER, I think that 90% of the behaviors that our culture considers to be fundamental, such as the math/english thing, are NOT based in differences between the brain. The differences in brain function are tiny compared with the differences in cultural socialization.

[lanabananaotter.livejournal.com]

Did you know, because of a much larger connecter between the left and right brain, women can understand approx. 380 words per minute, whereas guys can only understand approx. 220? That's a big difference.
So if you're ever in a heated arguement with a guy, and you're talking really fast, and he completely zones out and doesn't remember a thing you've said... that's because he can't! :3
They come off looking like insensetive jerks, and it's really not their fault! lol

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

AHA!

And THERE is the reason why this "men are this way, women are that way, and they just can't help it" crap bugs me.

If you're communicating with somebody, and they do not understand you, you should not be shrugging it off with "he's a male, he'll never understand, that's just now men are" and then going on with your dysfunctional relationship, both of you miserable in it. NO. You should take responsibility for helping a fellow human being, who is the same species as you and speaks the same language, to understand you. There is no insurmountable difference between the two. We are FAR more alike than we are different, and saying that it's "really not their fault" doesn't fix anything.

You can speak slower.

He can respond and break up what you're saying.

You can both take some DAMN responsibility for your relationship, instead of using male/female differences as a gigantic cop-out.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

And you might want to read a little more closely before you comment on things. You just completely and utterly disagreed with what I've been saying here, and you seem to think that I'll find it funny. I don't. I find it sickening and sad.

[lanabananaotter.livejournal.com]

I understood what you meant... but I was just reminded that male and female brains ARE shaped differently. There are certain small things that do separate us. I don't think it has anything to do with personality, or how people really react to things. In fact, I'm sure that's just society, jerking us all around again.
But I do have a certain curiousity about the differences between the two sexes, and what causes them. Bein male or female is such a strong subject in our society.

And I'm sorry if I offended you... I laugh at everything. I wasn't meaning to sound callous, I'm just naturally quite lighthearted. :( I know that sounds like a bad excuse like aspergers, but I find that the evils of the world lose alot of their horror if I just step back a bit and chuckle.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I'm more than a little snappish and twitchy just now. I probably shouldn't take this so seriously, but it just drives me crazy to hear people making jokes about it. They're usually just adding to the stereotypes. Saying that men and women process verbal language differently is fine. It is an interesting subject. But joking about that difference making it okay when a guy doesn't even try to listen isn't funny to me at all.

[lanabananaotter.livejournal.com]

I understand. I have a bad habit of commenting on serious subjects and regretting it later. :3 I should really refrain from doing it so often.
But I know what you mean. I'm especially sick of stereotype excuses for people being jerks.

Hope your life settles down a bit. Stress is so bad for your system.

[beetlecat.livejournal.com]

I promise you I will look through my Discover magazines as soon as I got home next week. There are scads and scads of scientific studies on this sort of thing.

Contunuing my example, boys are often bad at english or reading because they cannot absorb it as easy as girls and it is not taught in a way they can understand. Novels in school are very girl oriented.
In a sense then you are right about the cutural thing, since there is nothing in his brain preventing a boy from becoming a good reader, but it's the fundemental genetic differences that begin the cycle.

[pet-tiger.livejournal.com]

You know, I saw a neat documentary on the genetic factor of gender on TV yesterday and cannot for the life of me remember what it was called.

I quite liked the show, actually, because it put forth the theory that there are actual differences in the brains of males and females, and that gender is controlled by a whole bunch of different genes, not just the chromosomes. It was interesting to see them talk about intersex conditions (like the one where the body is immune to testosterone so it develops as a woman, even though there are testes internally instead of ovaries) and transexualism in that context. (That there can be "mix ups" with the different genes and the brain and body can develop as two different genders. I don't remember exactly what the research was, but that was the gist of it.)

I think the thing that struck me from the program the most was when they were talking about gender identity in the brain the one doctor described it much like you knowing that you're sitting, or that you exist, you just know that you're female or male, separate from what your body might say.

I do understand where you're coming from though. I think there's quite a lot of gender stereotyping that is just complete crap, and a lot of those behaviours are learned. (Like how girls should be into make-up and clothes shopping and guys should be into football and lewd jokes)

I think that it's neither all nature, nor all nurture. It's some combination of the two, and what the percentages are we may never know. (And I suspect those percentages might vary widely from person to person even.)

[pet-tiger.livejournal.com]

Also, on a whim I took that test and got something like 66% masculine and 83% feminine. I'm almost a person and a half!
(And the traits that I bet where the "feminine" ones were traits I have because I'm a more shy, empathetic person, not because I'm "girly".)

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

*nods* I know there's a lot to it.

What gets my goat so much is, as I mentioned in a comment above, the way gender roles are used as an excuse so often. She can't help it, she's a woman. It's not his fault, he's a man. That's both demeaning to women and men, and lets people have an excuse to not change. After all, it's in their genes, right? Nothing to be done!

Even if you do have a genetic tendency to be bad at something, that doesn't mean that you can't learn to be good at it anyhow.

[pet-tiger.livejournal.com]

*nodnods* I just find the genetic aspect of it to be fascinating. I've never bought the "oh she's just a woman, oh he's just a man" thing. And it almost boggles me that people still act surprised when a woman excels at something that is traditionally a "man's activity", or vice versa. I think I've always kind of felt that while there are differences in bodies and somewhat in the brains of females and males, there isn't enough of a difference to act like there's this unyielding line in the sand. In a lot of ways it feels the same as the differences in races, to me. There may be slight differences, but at the core we're all pretty much the same because we're all human, we've all got a lot more potential than we'll ever really know about.

[dotty-alice.livejournal.com]

Gender matters little. Women have two X chromosomes, while men have an X and a truncated X chromosome called Y.

Nature v. Nurture all you want, but we're both homo sapiens.

[ekmahal.livejournal.com]

You see distinct sex-based-roles and behaviours in just about every other species - why not humans? Many of them in critters that can't possibly have been indoctrinated into the role by their peers, because they're loners.

Humans are different. I do believe in evolution, and I think that's what has led us to today's 'type' of human. Where there are some shades and shadows of the sex-linked behaviours, but no societal need for it.

Some of these behaviours can be proven. Some are hormonally based - eg the aggressive response being driven by hormones like testostorone, which, unsurprisingly, males have more of, thus, more fight. Things like that. And, of course, those ... hrm ... animal? responses would be highly influenced by your upbringing and environment.

And then you apply the human brain, logic, reasoning, all those mechanisms, and you get some very very interesting behaviour!

Nature vs. nurture is a massive topic with all kinds of ramifications. One I find fascinating, can you tell? :)

I'm probably guilty of it myself, but I try really hard not to judge based on sex alone. If you're a pain in the arse, you'll be one, male, female, androgyne, whatever. Your sex doesn't prevent you or provoke you to any particular behaviour, your decisions do.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

I never said that there's no sex-based behaviors. But I don't think they're have much to do with what we call gender roles. Math is not a sex based behavior. Verbal communication is not a sex based behavior. Emotional manipulation is not a sex based behavior. Driving well or badly are not sex based behaviors either.

[ekmahal.livejournal.com]

True. I think the point I was getting at is that there probably are a certain set of gender-defined behaviours.

The scientific concept, as entirely opposed to the constructs Western society has dumped onto us.

There's only one stereotype I'm reasonably happy to accept; and that is the mother archetype. And that only because it's a biological imperative as much as a societal construct. Women the world over, in all kinds of varying societies and cultures, become mothers and spend time nurturing their babies.

Apart from that? Bollocks to gender roles. I'll do what I'm interested in, thankyou. And any child I have will be encouraged to do the same.

[ekmahal.livejournal.com]

(and even then, not all women want to be mothers. So it's not a general assumption that applies to all women, just that it's one of the few Accepted Norms I think applies to a reasonable majority. Your mileage may vary.)

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do agree that the mothering instinct is present more strongly in, well... mothers, than in fathers. Not that males can't care just as deeply about children, of course. But it is one fundamental difference, that the female bears them and gives birth to them. That's a genuine difference.

[rustydragonfly.livejournal.com]

Oh er... hi there!

I'd pretty much agree with you there. I'm happy to accept that there are biological differences in the way men and women think, but acting like that's the whole story and disregarding sociological influences strikes me as just a little stupid. Not to mention that even the biological hardware is most likely a lot more complex than "men always think like this and women always think like this", because it can vary a lot. Because that's what biology is like! And there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT DAMMIT.

I think I'm lucky - my parents had several bad shortfallings, but at least they never tried to make me act in a specific way just because I happened to be female. I'm not very stereotypically feminine, but I wouldn't WANT to be, anyway. I can't even stand the stereotypical female personality - too much crypticness and shallowness for me. And I HATE clothes shopping! I like to think I'm happily resistant to all those messages about how I "should" be. They just bounce off, and I don't give them any mind because they make no sense to me.

My grandma on the other hand... oh crap, I remember being dragged around clothes shops as a kid for what felt like hours and being told that I should enjoy clothes shopping because it's "ladylike". And now that I'm older, she seems to constantly want to guilt trip me into being like my younger cousin, who is more stereotypical. It's all "Oh, Debbie loves to go clothes shopping!" Argh! I'm not Debbie, dammit! I mean, don't get me wrong, she's nice and all, but I wish she'd knock off the "but Debbie likes this!" crap. Good thing I have immunity!

I sometimes wonder if there's a trend overall of looking for entirely biological reasoning behind people's behaviour and feelings. That's not a BAD thing, because I know there's got to be biological hardwiring in there deep down, but it seems like people are constantly ignoring external factors. And when it comes to the mind, said factors are going to be important too! A few months back I suspected myself of being depressed, and the first thing that springs to everyone's mind, the first thing that shows up when you look for depression related stuff? It's a chemical imbalance in your brain, take a pill to fix it! Wow! I mean yes, for some people it can be, but looking at my own life - you don't think all the stress of finishing my degree and worrying about a job and having enough money and a place to live afterwards had something to do with it? (But I suspect thinking of it that way won't give the drug companies as much profit...)

Ack, I just wrote a novel in your commentspace. Sorry. Venting feels good sometimes.

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Hee. *giggles* Vent away!

And I know what you mean about the depression. I happily had a very good shrink when I was going through a bad patch of it, who didn't try to medicate me. (yay!) It would have been very silly if she had. I mean gosh... I had about every kind of stress you could name, work, relationship, family, education, I wonder why I'm nearly having a nervous breakdown here? Could it possibly be stress-related?

[ekmahal.livejournal.com]

I was in a ZOMGSTRESS patch. IN my case, I did need the pills; I couldn't have hauled myself out of it without chemical assistance to tide me over for a few months. With the help, I did get my life sorted out very rapidly.

Medication isn't always the answer, but it does work for some :)

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it can be. We'd discussed it, and it I was still coming apart at the seams after I'd gotten away from one or two of my major stressors, I was seriously considering medication, but happily quitting school and moving out to Oregon got me back to more or less normal.

[lacy.livejournal.com]

If that's the test I'm thinking it is, when I took it I also noticed it's pretty much completely aimed at a stereotypical representation of either sex. If I remember right, I scored "Androgynous" and that's fairly typical for me, like you, I'll rarely score on the "Feminine" side of tests like this.

I don't believe either sex has any specific set of stereotypical behaviors they should try and live up to "fit" with what society expects of them. I know I certainly don't. I'd rather just be me, whatever me is, and not kid myself on what I like to do or how I behave. And no matter what, I am still a real woman.

[kira-blue-drago.livejournal.com]

Stereotypes are idiotic, of course internet tests don't prove alot but I just took it and I was Androgynous 53% masculine and 56% Feminine and as my sister knows I'm fairly girly. I like the shopping, the clothes and the makeup. However I don't play mind games and I'm not some big moody mess. I'm pretty independant and I'm about to graduate from a technical college. It seems like if a girl has those girly tendencies of shopping and stuff she is automatically thought of as a stupid bimbo who plays mind games and "needs" to be taken care of. It really is Stupid, Women can have a good mix of both sides, as can men.