Thought.

[bladespark]

Two incidents:

1. A girl on a livejournal community devoted to ranting about sucky customers posts a post about how she can't stand hispanic men, because one particular customer of hers is really a tard towards her. She gets jumped all over for the racism. (And rather justifiably so. The community is not "hispanics suck" it's "customers suck," and she really should have just left it in her own lj.) In the comments, however, she reveals that she herself is hispanic. And that this makes it all okay. Response to this is somewhat divided.

2. In a furry chat a while ago a long-time visitor who is, himslef, a furry, starts ranting to me about how all furries are criminals, furries are horrible, and he's never met a furry he liked, we're all just scum. I tell him that as far as I know I haven't committed any major crimes, he insists that I'm a scuzbag because I'm furry and all furries are ick. I leave the room, because I'm just not in the mood. But now I wish I'd asked him what that meant about himself and his own self image.

These two incidents have me thinking. Is it possible to be bigoted against one's own race? And I think the answer to this is yes.

Thoughts?

Comments

[kaura-nighthawk.livejournal.com]

1. No, it's not okay. Racism towards one's own ethnicity is still racism- it also implies self-loathing. >_>

2. Isn't self-loathing fun? >_>

[reaverta.livejournal.com]

He nailed it in one. Ergo:

Seconded.

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) Actually, the dislike seemed to be the intersection of two types (if they can be called that) of bigotry: as it was a hispanic female with a bias against hispanic males, then self-loathing only becomes a serious possibility if she someday has or plans to have one or more male children.

The second example, though: quite.

In reply to the main entry: certainly. *mind roves; comes to rest* Take the example of Americans who are ashamed of their country, and hate what it's come to stand for--and more than that, who hate the country itself, viewing it as detestable (and same for Americans). Extend that sort of emotion, and you could... ah, there's an example. Take the British Empire, in the time of slavery: you could have someone who hated Britain, the British and their practices, yet was British himself or herself. (And then you have 'class traitors' and the like.) Same thing with admiration of Native Americans or the Japanese (and dislike or disgust at own ethnicity).

Either concious self-loathing, or doublethink, or just a failure to think the consequences through in evidence. Can be complex, but... yes. It is possible. *thinks for a moment* (Or complex, usually in some way flawed reasons about why one's bigotry doesn't apply to oneself; not exactly doublethink.)

[2dlife.livejournal.com]

It's definitely possible to hate ones own group. The psyche makes a very clear distinction between the self and the other and there's actually nothing directly hypocritical about it. Only when we rationalize about the hate and self-reflect does it become apparent that it's hypocritical. Self image is a very weird concept because it's entirely possible that the "hispanicness" or "furryness" is left out of their own self image -- perhaps from spending significant time around members outside their group.

That said, it's not really OK to hate any group, really.

[streakthetiger.livejournal.com]

Hehehe, yup.

There was this post on a forum I frequent. Some fur asked "What is furry" Okay. Legit question. But then he goes into depth saying he doesn`t know what furry means anymore becuase of all the stuff he has seen. He was later banned for getting too offensive.
But there was another member who posted to the thread saying that he can`t wait until he can leave this "condition" behind and laugh about it.
Condition being furry.

Sometimes you just need to slap people a few times. :D

[silveradept]

There are still several degrees of the One True Scotsman, even between members of the same ethnic or interest group. Hell, even the same gender. There is a predominant thought, though, that if you are a member of the group you're disparaging, that any time you're talking about that group, you're really joking around and not being a racist. Anyone not of that group, however, using it is automatically serious and a racist. (i.e. "nigger" - anyone not African-American using said word is always a racist, anyone African-American using it is just describing his homies, y'know?)

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

M) *laughs at the wonderfully twisted phrase 'describing his homies'*

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) 'One True Sctosman': what does the phrase refer to, and what is its relation to the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy?

[sharpsight.livejournal.com]

N) ...

s/Sctosman/Scotsman/

[silveradept]

That's the fallacy I was trying to invoke - I thought it was the "One True X" fallacy.

[draxynnic.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

I came across something like that in senior high school English - I think it was the author of The Colour Purple wrote a poem in which she described (in complimentary ways, mind you, although she did compliment "white man" for having a drive to do things and "red man" precisely for not having that drive and being happier to just relax and enjoy life. The general moral, I think, was to show that each choice of lifestyle was equally valid) the characteristics of Anglo-Americans, African Americans and native Americans.

The reason she didn't include Asian Americans was apparently that her ancestry included Anglic, African and Native American branches but nothing of Asian origin, so she didn't feel she had the right to talk about the latter.

[lin-chan.livejournal.com]

Sometimes after a rude encounter, or reading something in the news, I'll just blurt out, "men suck" and I have yet to offend any of my friends. Which is weird, because my whole life, they've mostly been guys themselves. In fact, they often pipe in with something like "yeah they do." My husband's reactions are no exception. They agree simply because they've had to deal with a lot of men who suck too. They know without question I just made a huge sweeping generalization that can never really include everyone it acuses, and they've had enough experience dealing with other men to see where I'm coming from.
And for the record, most of the funny eyebrow looks and honking horns and kissy faces and cat calls out car windows and blatantly pointing at you and talking to their buddies about you like you're a piece of meat has been from hispanic men. I just never say so because unfortunately I feel like I do have to be hispanic to say so or I'll be labeled a racist.
Kind of like I didn't feel like I could express my full opinion of abortion until I got pregnant.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Ok, first point sounds at least part to me the actions of someone who realised they had said something stupid so lied to try and get themselves out of it.

If it isn't - well, yes it is possible to hate your own group - or at least stereotypical/common/perceived behaviour of our own group. my own little shameful tale - I spend my life as a quiet gay man happily living with hubby and fighting like mad against people who call me perverse/unnatural etc. Then i see some of the more spectacular displays - uber drag queens and people nearly naked in public and think "damn it guys, you're not helping ANY of us!" Which is REALLY unfair and wrong of me. I also read stats that say AIDS infections are still growing most rapidly among gay men and I just want to scream "gods, what is WRONG with you?! Don't we all know better by now?!" It's not so much anger at the group, it's anger that I am a part of that group and know that their actions are automatically going to stick to me.

Am I fair about it? Not really. Just because I'm annoyed that everyone assumes I'm a promiscuous, drag wearing, outrageous, half naked, feminine sex maniac who is incapable of monogamy doesn't mean that people who ARE promiscuous, drag wearing, outrageous, half naked, feminine sex maniac who has no interest in monogamy have a duty to change for the sake of my image. The fact that I'm pissed off at being assumed to be a disease carrier by all and sundry doesn't mean people should change their sex habits (no, they should change them for the sake of their health). It still doesn't change that I find myself irritated by my own group.

And it is still prejudice, really. Even though I am part of the group being prejudiced. My flailing at previaling cultures or a minority or the whole group on the basis of the actions of a few are still unfair and prejudiced coming from me as they would be coming from Pat Robertson.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

Oh to add: you can have basic self hate. If the media, your friends, society, whatever tells you that all X are weird and wrong and bad then you will either a) hate yourself along with your entire group or b) think they're ALL BAD BUT YOU (I think we're seeing this in the furry).

[bladespark.livejournal.com]

Quite well said. And I tend to feel a bit the same way about furry. Every time I see somebody who's into the more pervy bits talk to a reporter about his cartoon character fetish or whatever, it rather gets to me, as I end up tarred with the same brush....

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

It's probably not fair on either of our parts to expect everyone in our groups to act constantly as an ambassador, diplomat or representative of our group - but that's the instinct I fall to. Occasionally I have to stop myself and say "hey, Sparky, it's none of your business what he's wearing or how he acts or who he sleeps with or whether he uses a condom." I mean, I fight for the freedom for me to live as I choose while at the same time bitching (even internally) at these people for not living like me - how hypocritical is that?