One last thought before I go.

[bladespark]

An article that more or less sums up the reasons why I dislike porn, without being terribly inflamatory about it. (I'm not sure I agree 100% with all points made, nor do I regard all judgements of what is typical behavior as valid, but the general gist of it is very much in line with my own observations and feelings on the subject.)

Now I'm off to bed, to arise early and depart for BoardieCon and beyond. I return on July 31st. I shall try to check my e-mail from time to time while I'm gone, but I probably won't be able to terribly often.

Comments

[harliquinnraver.livejournal.com]

have fun! poke me when you return and ill send out your ponies. i would have sent them already but post offices are shit and i fear it probably would get post.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I agree with this article at all.

Yes there is porno out there but that doesn't mean people are turned off to real people. People are more reasonable than that, no matter how high their fantasy life is. Besides, when it comes to excessive body image issues and the need to act out with lesbian kisses et al more blame by far goes to the model, fashion and celebrity industries than the porn one

Yes, it has widened what sex is considered available and acceptable - but that's less "oh, a vagina isn't enough any more" so much as it is people getting to grips with their own sexuality, their own sexual needs and wants.

No-one looks at fetish pronography that they aren't already attracted to - no-one seeks it and if you get a fetish porno that is not your thing you are more likely to make a face and reach for the eye bleach than want to try it.

But if someone IS into spanking or anal sex or bondage or female ejaculation or all the myriad kinks out there they can now see it, they don't have the same degree of "I'm the only sick twisted pervert in the world" we're not as ashamed of our sex life and sexuality any more.

[aoanla.livejournal.com]

Well, the author of the article, Naomi Woolf, is fairly well known for her views on the wider subject of the effect of social factors on the perception of women, and attractiveness. She wrote a book, "The Beauty Myth", which is required reading in Women's Studies courses, on this.

(Her critique is also related, I think, to modern critiques of "raunch feminism" - which holds that, essentially, it can be a feminist act to be a stripper or other worker dependant on a predominantly sexual expression. The criticisms tend to be that this, while being potentially personally empowering, also acts to generally cause it to be more acceptable to objectify women sexually / less acceptable to not be promiscuous etc. There's something in this about how modelling for magazines like Playboy is contradictory to feminism, given that Playboy's stated "perfect woman" is very much the "safe, obedient" woman, not a "dangerous" one.)

And, of course, it is difficult to discuss "pornography" as a concept, because the word relates to sexually-oriented images as seen as taboo and verboten, not to sexually-oriented images as a whole. People have wanted to look at sexually-oriented images since at least the time of the Ancient Greeks, and the fact that you can make "hyperreal" art tends to encourage exaggeration in artistic depictions.

(Personally, I suspect the issues that Woolfe is talking about are actually epiphenomena of the effects of neo-liberal policies on social behavior. But that's just me.)

[ellixis.livejournal.com]

I respectfully disagree with the article's opinion, but I don't really want to argue about it.

[lanabananaotter.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not a very sexual person (at all) so when I actually dated someone who was... it was really awful. He wanted to try all this kinky stuff that I just wasn't into. We broke up after he abused me sexually. :/
I think the trick is to find someone who has a similar sexuality as you. Then no one wants more than the other wants to give.

:(

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

i agree, and I like your avatar. sorry that relationship ended badly, people need to either get their kinks on the side or understand what their partner wants, some people just aren't compatible sexually, but it doesn't mean they can't work something out. <:(

hmmm

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

I can somewhat agree with some observations, but i don't feel like pr0n is the only factor in society that causes sexless marriages and alienation. The fact that men and women just can't find their feminine/masculine side or sympathize with problems the other sex/gender may have seems to be a MAJOR factor in our society for the distance between the genders. Pornography just seems to reflect this. I think her observations of not relating to one another are observations that indeed the Victorians, Elizabetheans, and yea, the great greeks themselves tackled with, but depending on the time/place/culture it was more or less acceptable to act in a way that was not in accordance with one's biological sex. It isn't a new thing, there are just more people in the world and slightly more opportunities to see other people as objects.
I also don't think that the porn=better than real woman (or man) is a view held by most males I personally know, and I don't think it is a belief held by mature people, male or female. A little kink and fetish is always popular, but I do support the making of female friendly porn that is all/way more about the women's pleasure, rather than how many orifices have things stuck in them. Like gambling, the internet, fast food, chocolate, nicotine, prescription pills, etc, porn is something that can be addictive, more mentally than physically. It can be a good stress reliever sometimes, but to substitute it for healthy social interaction is generally unhealthy.
I honestly think the amount this (porn) affects our society is less than any of us would imagine. US crime rates have been falling a long time, but the media loves to stir up panic. Damn liberal bastards- oh wait... they
are only allowed to be as liberal as the people who own them....

*babble* sorry for the ranting at length...

Re: hmmm

[silveradept]

Not to be confrontational at all in this case, but because I have a genuine lack of understanding, but I would like to know how one could tell "female-friendly" material from the rest, given that a significant portion of pornography would want to depict the woman as being pleased while a wo/man/some wo/men had sex with her.

Re: hmmm

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

female friendly is porn or erotica that is more plot oriented and if i may say :"touchy-feely." The stories are usually more realistic and less fetish oriented. I guess they are more like real movies with a heavy focus on sex, and do not include things that may be considered degrading (ie bukkake, less objectification of women in particular, beating or rape fantisies. there are a wide variety of porn made by women that are supposed to be sexy but not focused on looks, the actors look more like real people. One project i saw was videotaping women masterbating, where they knew they were being filmed and were not getting paid to be on camera, it was totally volunteer. It was almost cute as well as hot, and while it waa graphic, it wasn't what I would consider dirty or nasty or gross, just kind of interesting.
I'm not saying that some BDSM porn isn't hot, or that some women don't enjoy being "degraded" in a roleplay fantasy, but I usually prefer females dominating males, and I just don't personally feel like some porn movies let on that the women in the rape or domination fantasy has ANY control. The whole BDSM fetish (as i percieve it) is usually only hot because you trust your partner(s), not because you want to really truely be raped or not in control of a situation. That is why good kink play has a safe word.... :P

i hope this helps, it is kind of hard to explain.

Re: hmmm

[silveradept]

It helps paint a picture of what you mean, yes. Aside from those pictures that specifically bring forth the woman-as-submissive with no control, though, there's still a lot there, I would think. Do you think most adult entertainment subtly or overtly entertains the man-in-charge idea, even in places where both parties would be seen enjoying themselves? Or in places where the female leads most of the action?

Re: hmmm

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

eh, it is hard to say who is "on top" metaphorically in most adult entertainment, but I would say there tends to be a bias towards women pleasing men, and women being pleased by pleasuring men.
Or perhaps the women are wanting what the director thinks male viewers want, rather than what a female viewer may want. I don't want to say that females want only soft core or non-kinky/fetish sex because i know to the contrary many men who are far less kinky than their girlfriends. I also think many girls are naturally into fetishes and kinky sex outside of the "male desire to have their girlfriend be GGG- good, giving and game." Many women enjoy wierd fetish sex, but i always feel like most porn is indeed made for males who are into domination and into contrallable and sexy women without individual personalities. Some female domination porn (haven't investigated much) seems to be focused on how the male feels and how hot the female is, not how much she enjoys what is going on. By this i mean, a female actress will say 'oh baby,etc," but this seems more like ego stroking the male rather than an actual pleasurable exclaimation.
None of this is by any means definitive, but i think there seems to be a cycle of serving male fantasies and alienating women, thus killing the female target population for the product, thus making the male the main customer for porn.

All of this porn stuff i think is more an underlying issue with our culture's stereotypes of men and women rather than just our ideas about sex.


i am tired, sorry if this is totally useless...:P

Re: hmmm

[silveradept]

It's not useless, I'm just reading it a few times to make sure that I'm understanding it correctly. I think I've managed at least some part of that now, and it made sense when you said something about controllable and sexy women, even in places where they're supposed to be in control. I still don't know whether I totally agree with you, but that's more out of a stubbornness of opinion that most situations in adult entertainment at least appear consensual and to be enjoyed by both parties, or they wouldn't be as appealing.

Discarding that, though, what are those underlying issues that you speak of? This also seems like fruitful soil to dig in.

Re: hmmm

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

eh, the whole american image of sex as a bad and dirty thing just pisses me off in general, I'm not as against porn as i may seem in these posts, but i do see some validity in the arguements that porn can be problematic. I have a psych BA and it certainly seems like some (certainly not all) studies of men's behavior before and after certain kinds of pornography seem to be more disrespectful of women after the porn. I certainly don't beleive this is something that applies to every man, and it may not even be the porn itself. It is kind of creepy though, since it seems to be a study that has signifigant resuls in several trials.
However, i don't beleive in censoring porn or adult stuff- i think the whole freaking out over sex and making kids who see a little boob or ass into victims certainly hurts them more than seeing mom and dad doing the nasty accidentally. I hate reading letters to advice columnests from women who think their boyfriends/husbands are porn addicts becasue they view a little skin flick every now and then or go to the strip joint for a batchleor's party. It's like alcohol or smoking, a little every now and then can be fun and special, or nice to relax after work, whatever. When it's compulsive, it can suck - i do this with a lot of things, like the internet, so i sympathize, but that isn't the porn industry's problem. Unlike cigarrettes and drugs, you don't have to push porn much, no one is breaking any legs or advertising to kids that porn is "cool," it's just there like any other product we buy.

I also respect the fact that yeah, people in pornos are consenting adults and whatever they wanna do for cash is their choice. I guess I just get bothered by the implication that all a guy "needs" is a women who is hot and horny and under his thumb. I know most intelligent adults can figure out that this isn't necessarily the goal of porn, but it bothers me on both sides- i know women can be sexy and horny and they shouldn't be called sluts when a guy can do the same thing and be a stud, but i also hate the idea that every girl should look like a porn star so guys will like them. I guess when people take really unreal porn and take it too seriously, it bugs me. Sadly, it seems like some guys expect their girlfriends to do things they can't even imagine doing, and some girls expect that all guys want from them it sex, and it just sucks that something as fun as sex has to be hushed up and made into this dirty thing that people have to be paid to do... :P
Most guys don't expect you to look like Brittainy Spears and do every sex act ever done, or at least the ones I'd like to be with don't, and women with confidence are much hotter than those who are so insecure they have to cling to every fad.... sorry Madonna... :D

Re: hmmm

[silveradept]

No arguments from me on that. I just wanted to know what was behind the thinking.

Re: hmmm

[aazhie.livejournal.com]

yup. I am not much of a radical feminist, or particularily conservative as I may have said, I wouldn't begrude anyone their wierd fetish porn as long as no one is hurt against their will/killed in it. I think animated stuff is ok because obviously, cartoons don't suffer. I can see why people don't want some porn emulated, torture and child rape and all that is pretty damn wrong no matter where you are from, but that is why you encourage people to be more mature, rather than take away the porn, it only makes people WANT to watch it more.

Forbidden fruit is far more alluring than many can imagine, wheras making something inunfashionable resluts in an extreme drop in desireability.

[lightgreendryad.livejournal.com]

Wow. Parting with an awesome article. This is going on my journal too.